What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(split topic)

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Apollo702
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What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(split topic)

Post by Apollo702 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:32 am

[green] In response to a question about why PM is different and why[/green][red] FF[/red][green] is in decline I am creating a split thread to break it down in some detail.

In many ways [/green][red]Mozilla[/red][green] peaked in perhaps the Summer of 2010. For a number of years everyone in the know would run FF. When people would get a new computer the first thing that they would do would be pull up stinky old [/green][red]Internet Explorer[/red][green] and use it to download the old FF. Many people to this day will swear by the old FF 3 series as (at the time) best browser available.

The true beginning of the end was when they signed their agreement with [/green][yellow]Google[/yellow][green] who pulled them aside and 'coached" them. This was shortly before the release of the [/green][red]FF 4[/red]<green series.[/green][red] FF[/red][green] has never been the same since then. By Winter 2010 the direction was locked, chaos ensued behind the scenes, waves of talent fled, incompetence ran rampant...

Since that point they have wiped out toolbar customization(Especially after [/green][red]FF29[/red][green]), introduced electrolysis, phased out extensions... The short version is they turned what was THE open sourced browser into a lousy [/green][red]Chrome[/red][green] imitation. If people want to run[/green][red] spammy, slow, clunky Chrome[/red][green] why not just run the real deal-or one of it's countless variants?

Also, it is critical to point out that officially [/green][red]Mozilla[/red][green] is classified as open source it is chartered BOTH as a non-profit AND a profit-making corporation- both run by the same guy! How is that even legal?

[/green]Disclosure: I run a business making tech work for the average person. Therefore, on multiple computers I have nearly every major browser installed for testing/comparison purposes. Most of them I would never run for any real use however. I consider the rest either incapable, insecure, slow... If a computer had to absolutely be private/secure I would immediately uninstall the rest.[green]

PM on the other hand did not fall into any of those traps. It remains a true open source customizable browser. It is faster, lighter, cleaner and can be made infinitely safer when run with the proper combination of extensions such as NoScript, Request Policy...

That is a lot of information- but that is the answer.[/green]

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A440
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by A440 » Wed May 24, 2017 6:56 am

I may be switching to Opera since I'm having issues with Firefox. The last two updates has caused problems with how scripts run and just hang up.

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Apollo702
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by Apollo702 » Wed May 24, 2017 9:12 pm

[green] I did fail to emphasize the "rabid release" fiasco. For a long time stinky old [/green][red]IE[/red][green] was the only real browser and [/green][yellow] Microsucks[/yellow][green] just sat on it.

It was only inevitable that better alternatives would emerge such as FF, Oprah, eventually Chrome.... However, [/green][yellow] Google[/yellow][green] introduced version number fraud. Since [/green][red]IE[/red][green] was stale they would show them up by cranking out updates for even the most minor .001 update and labeling them "MAJOR NEW RELEASES!"

When they coached[/green][red] Mozilla[/red][green] they put them on a 6 week release schedule. Whether there was anything meaningful or not it didn't matter. Whether the update was a regression, whether it introduced functionality and compatibility issues it didn't matter. Every 6 weeks there was a "MAJOR NEW RELEASE!"

That is how you destroy a browser![/green]

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redblade7
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by redblade7 » Thu May 25, 2017 7:20 pm

Now with the deletion of all "legacy" addons scheduled for this fall, I've moved to PM and am never going back. Some FF addon developers have moved to PM, namely Pentadactyl which is the reason I've left Firefox. The Mozilla Foundation is a Google tax shelter, why would you expect Firefox to be anything but a gateway drug for Chrome?

Only problem is that the PM developers are hostile to the concept of the right to privacy. See my myWOT review of palemoon.org for more information and proof. But so far no scandals.

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Apollo702
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by Apollo702 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:43 pm

<quote user="redblade7">
Now with the deletion of all "legacy" addons scheduled for this fall, I've moved to PM and am never going back. Some FF addon developers have moved to PM, namely Pentadactyl which is the reason I've left Firefox. The Mozilla Foundation is a Google tax shelter, why would you expect Firefox to be anything but a gateway drug for Chrome?

Only problem is that the PM developers are hostile to the concept of the right to privacy. See my myWOT review of palemoon.org for more information and proof. But so far no scandals.
[/quote]

[green] Here I am cheerleading for them- but yet I had that very problem with them myself. Days before the Snowden revelations I was in there posting tutorials on how to boost your privacy/security with tools like NoScript, Request Policy, CWWB... and they posted in [/green][red] BIG RED LETTERS[/red][green] that I was fearmongering and if I ever posted again I would be banned for life.

Some people attempted to defend me- and they spazzed out at them claiming that I would ruin advertising. They also have refused help and service to my beta testers. I tell them to never log in from one of my office computers and to never say who they are. Just get in, get their answers and get the heck out! Their forums are completely arbitrary and capricious.

Now, having said that, I believe so strongly in the project itself that I showcase it in my business and I am promoting it whenever and wherever possible. The need for a true open source browser is too great. In life many times we have to separate the developer from their work.[/green]


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Satchman
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by Satchman » Fri May 26, 2017 9:44 am

<quote user="apollo702">
[green] Here I am cheerleading for them- but yet I had that very problem with them myself. Days before the Snowden revelations I was in there posting tutorials on how to boost your privacy/security with tools like NoScript, Request Policy, CWWB... and they posted in [/green][red] BIG RED LETTERS[/red][green] that I was fearmongering and if I ever posted again I would be banned for life.

Some people attempted to defend me- and they spazzed out at them claiming that I would ruin advertising. They also have refused help and service to my beta testers. I tell them to never log in from one of my office computers and to never say who they are. Just get in, get their answers and get the heck out! Their forums are completely arbitrary and capricious.

Now, having said that, I believe so strongly in the project itself that I showcase it in my business and I am promoting it whenever and wherever possible. The need for a true open source browser is too great. In life many times we have to separate the developer from their work.[/green]
[/quote]

What counts as a legacy add-on in Mozilla Firefox? What makes an add-on modern?

Satch


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destinationtruth
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by destinationtruth » Fri May 26, 2017 11:06 am

<quote user="satchman">
What counts as a legacy add-on in Mozilla Firefox? What makes an add-on modern?

Satch
[/quote]

This might give you some answers Satch:
_https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/

All this worry is just Fearmongering to convert people to PM. Which personally find many add-ons I like don't work with anyhow. Not a fan of PM.

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redblade7
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by redblade7 » Fri May 26, 2017 3:57 pm

<quote user="satchman">
What counts as a legacy add-on in Mozilla Firefox? What makes an add-on modern?

Satch
[/quote]

Starting this fall, all Firefox addons (XUL/XPCOM) will have to be rewritten completely in a new programming language (WebExtensions) to work at all. Few have been rewritten as the new programming language isn't as capable as the "legacy" one and the developers don't have time to re-write their software.

Pale Moon has promised to keep XUL/XPCOM going. The problem that the destinationtruth refers to the fact that Pale Moon spun off from Firefox before Australis, and so will not work with addons developed/updated after that point (29 I think) so you often have to use older versions (it's in the "all versions" section of addons.mozilla.org).

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destinationtruth
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by destinationtruth » Fri May 26, 2017 5:01 pm

That is true what redblade7 said, yet one first has to ask why only add-ons that old (ver 29) would work and why Mozilla don't accept them and their authors updated them . Reason would be because they are antiquated; very old and no longer useful, popular, or accepted. They are very old-fashioned or obsolete. No one would update an add on if it didn't have flaws or lacked functionality. . . including privacy.

I feel the advantages of a multi-threaded browser which is Improved performance will exceed the loss of using some add-ons. You pretty much can rest assured that all top add-ons will be updated or replace by those that understand coding for multi-threading.

As of version 53 no new add-ons are accepted that won't work with multi-threading.

Using them (old add-ons) is like using XP. . . Time to move forward with technology.

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Apollo702
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RE: What happened to Firefox and why Palemoon is the new FF(spli

Post by Apollo702 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:12 am

<quote user="destinationtruth">
That is true what redblade7 said, yet one first has to ask why only add-ons that old (ver 29) would work and why Mozilla don't accept them and their authors updated them . Reason would be because they are antiquated; very old and no longer useful, popular, or accepted. They are very old-fashioned or obsolete. No one would update an add on if it didn't have flaws or lacked functionality. . . including privacy.

I feel the advantages of a multi-threaded browser which is Improved performance will exceed the loss of using some add-ons. You pretty much can rest assured that all top add-ons will be updated or replace by those that understand coding for multi-threading.

As of version 53 no new add-ons are accepted that won't work with multi-threading.

Using them (old add-ons) is like using XP. . . Time to move forward with technology
[/quote]

[green] Not true! I am probably the only person alive who regularly sweeps the entire[/green][red] Mozilla[/red][green] catalog. I regularly run about 125 to 130 extensions and have experimented with thousands. I can state to a certainty that virtually all of them work as-is and do not need or want updating. The vast majority were written before [/green][red]29[red][green]/[/green][red]Australis[/red][green] and they are working perfectly.

Blindly cranking out updates just for the sake of it is inherently destructive. Also, countless updates are really .00001 updates that make only the most trivial changes. Maybe if one misses out on the one that fixes a minor bug in Swahili support that doesn't mean that things are hopelessly outdated and insecure.

Also, a problem with why authors aren't updating anymore is [/green][red] Mozilla's[/red][green] behavior. They offer a constantly shifting platform, they arbitrarily and slowly review submissions and make developer's lives hell. It is no wonder that so many threw in the towel!




[green]Multiprocessing is great for computer chips. It is [/green][red] lousy[/red][green] in browsers. The privacy/security gains are overrated and it makes a browser slooowwwwww and HEAVY</strong.> On an average powered backup- not a power- computer I recently pulled up thousands of tabs on PM. Try that on [/green][red]Chrome[/red][green] or a recently updated[/green][red] FF[/red][green] with about 75 tabs of average content and watch it seize up. Try any more and it risks seizing up your entire rig.

Yes, XP is getting long in the tooth. Their masterpiece in a landslide is 7. [/green][yellow] 8[/yellow][green] had some under the hood improvements, but it looked like a dog barfed a bag of Skittles. [/green][red]10[/red][green] just plain sucks. Nobody likes it- and it attempts to force even more brand lock, has massive privacy issues and has all those horrendous forced updates. Nobody selects it by choice. The vast masses get stuck with it because they bought a new computer. They had no idea what they were getting themselves into.

The point is moving forwards with technology is not always the way to go. In areas ranging from operating systems to browsers many times the updates are downgrades.[/green]



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