Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Dareks67
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RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Dareks67 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:47 pm


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Dareks67
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:05 pm

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Dareks67 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:51 am


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Dareks67
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:05 pm

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Dareks67 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:17 pm


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Guest

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Guest » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:42 pm

rpgstash.com

Guest

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Guest » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:07 pm

Re: http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/rpgstash.com/comment-59711421#comment-59711421

rpgstash quoted response and my reply:
IssViews,

It is very insulting to see my website www.rpgstash.com

being demonized by you, a platinum member of this community who has never used our services and is fighting a religious war against an imaginary evil guilty of scamming, phishing, boting, macroing, hacking, and real money trading - all at the same time.

For your information we do not use bots / macros / hacks to aquire currency, items, and accounts or perform services. And we do not spam in the games. We are a small business featuring a few selected games that allow us to provide satisfactory service that lasts for years.

Our services are not disruptive to other players or financially damaging to the game companies. On the contrary. We offer our time doing the boring environment grinding work for players, so that they in turn can focus on what MMORPGs are really all about:

Hanging out with other players.

The fact that Real Money Trading, as it is popularly called, is forbidden in the EULA of some games does not make it illegal. EULAs are not law and game companies are perfectly aware of this which is why they don't bring real money traders to court. There is no precedent and the prospects of winning are bleak.

Read carefully what the South Korean judge Ung-gi Yoon has to say about real money trading:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1113327



When you label my business as phishing/ scam, you are making yourself guilty of a real criminal offense called libel which is a quite serious offense in the real world and can lead to imprisonment in jurisdictions such as the United States.

The reason why our services, as per our terms, are provided on an "as is" basis is because the game companies can change the game at any time and data loss can occur for a variety of technical reasons. If you study the terms of service of any MMORPG you will find the very same conditions so this is all in perfect symmetry.

However, we normally do reimburse players that can prove loss of a recently rendered service which is more than can be said about 99% of all game companies who pretty much never replace anything a player has lost for any reason,.

If you follow the evolution of MMO games, you will know that they are shifting from subscription models to free 2 play and microtransactions which is a far more lucrative model. This shift brings about a new perspective on the time the player spends in-game. It is no longer the amount of time the player spends, it is how the player chooses to spend that time that determines his value for the game company.

As for the microtransactions themselves, not all are cosmetics and perks. Some of them are pay to win. And not only in Asian MMOs. In EVE Online we have the PLEX which for all practical purposes is a pay to win micro transaction, in Runescape we have the Squeel of Fortune, and in Diablo 3 we have the Real Money Auction House.

Even cosmetics, perks and convenience microtransactions have an element of pay to win to them. It is not black and white. What players want out of a game is novelty, and attention and respect from other players. Whether it's a new account, XP, item power, cool adornment, or a new pet, buying it with real money is a short cut, whether the vendor is the game company or another player.

MMOs are not about grinding, they are about players interacting with other players and real money trading is a huge and unstopable facet of player interaction. The best business model for a game company is to monetize it, not fighting it, and that's what we are seeing today.

The MMORPG is becoming precisely that which you are demonizing.
There is nothing imaginary in fighting cyber crime which is not just combatting those areas you pointed out but also includes virtual items which remains the property of the MMO company and sales of those goods is prohibited without prior permissions first being obtained. Read the MMO Tos and user agreements which clearly state this. Likewise powerlevelling services and account trading for real cash is also prohinited under said agreements. Whether you use automated tools or not, you are aiding and abetting users in breaking agreements which they have electronically signed which does lead to banning by said MMO companies and could result in court action against a user to claim damages, if the company decided to follow that path.

There is no way you can deny that services like yours have no detrimental effect on the MMO games themselves. Players have been complaining for years about game economies being manipulated for the benefit of gold sellers, pvp grounds becoming unplayable due to the high numbers of bots or honour grinders behind several accounts, farmers who are online 24/7, accounts being hacked to aid virtual traders and some being resold, the high amounts of phishing to get account and banking details from gamers, etc. etc. The services you offer DO affect gaming environments for the worse.

Pointing out the Korean court case you neglected to mention that this applies only to Korea itself (not globally) and that virtual money is subject to taxation (as is being pushed through by other countries too).

If this was not illegal, why the court actions which have had some success?

Blizzard filed lawsuits against peons4hire (gold sellers) which resulted in that company being out out of work. http://virtuallyblind.com/files/in_game_dollar_complaint.pdf
Zynga, the makers of FarmVille, successfully sued to stop online sales of its in-game currency.
Jagex, the makers of RuneScape, have engaged in actions against several gold farmers and bot programmers including lawsuits.
There is many more if you look.

IMO you are running a scam by encouraging others to engage in practices which could result in loss of virtual goods, game accounts, may involved court action (company v gamer or vice versa) with potential loss of real money or end in loss of life (rare) due to the grief a gamer suffers from years of playing an account only to lose their hard work and the privilege. Be careful with the libel claims, it is a big world out there and US laws are exactly that, not imprisonable or enforceable on non US citizens residing in other countries which have their own laws regarding libel.

Indeed MMOS are about interaction between players and grinding (no matter how big or small) is all part of the gameplay, designed to focus the player and give reward/satisfaction at the end. Making these hard to get or rare items easily available though services like yours DOES negatively impact on the game and other players.

Throughout the many years of playing MMOs I have witnessed many good players buy that rare item, show it off for a few days, become bored because there was little else they wanted then leave the game. Some regretted it and later returned, admitting that their purchase was the deciding factor and had they not done this, they would have enjoyed the game more and not left. Others quit for good.

My comment and rating remain.

rpgstash
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:11 pm

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by rpgstash » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:11 pm

IssViews,

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. This is an important issue. A few facts to better understand the legal implications:

1. The law suit filed against peons4hire (In Game Dollar LCC) was on basis of spamming - using bots - and thus ruining the game for the players resulting in monetary loss for Blizzard. Blizzard also successfully won in court against the makers of the glider bot on basis of DMCA violation.

2. In so far as Zynga the only law suits I can find are against them for scam ads and sharing facebook user data with third parties. The fact that they sell game currency themselves directly to their players does not paint them in a better light by your very own standards. Of course, by selling the game currency themselves they would have a case against players doing it. This is completely different from standard real money trading.

3. Jagex has never sued anyone for real money trading as in gold selling. I should know because I have been doing uninterupted business in Runescape since 2005. And since Andrew Gower left the company in 2010 they don't care much about real money trading at all.

As you can see, game companies only have a case when players do things like spam the game, or sell the software / virtual goods that the game company itself sells. In the case of real money trading they are confined to policing within the game, and here it should be noted that RPGStash only conducts business in games where customers are not banned. Our business is entirely based on returning customers. We would not exist without customer satisfaction. Especially in this time and age when information is so widely available.

This is why it really upsets me that you label us as scam / phishing and give us a horrible score without ever having heard about us, used our services or even checked what game services we offer. We are not even doing business in your favourite game World of Warcraft.

Guest

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Guest » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:11 pm

<quote="rpgstash">This is an important issue. A few facts to better understand the legal implications[/quote]
Cough, are you being serious lol? Indeed it is an important issue, to clean up the internet and those who use it to exploit others.

<quote="rpgstash">The fact that they sell game currency themselves directly to their players does not paint them in a better light by your very own standards.[/quote]
Not at all. It is the right of the MMO company to sell their own virtual products to earn extra revenue to support game development. I support MMO companies selling ingame gold to help their players. I do not support third parties jumping on the band wagon exploiting both the MMO company and its gamers.

<quote="rpgstash">In the case of real money trading they are confined to policing within the game, and here it should be noted that RPGStash only conducts business in games where customers are not banned.[/quote]
Really! I beg to differ.

Blizzard actively suspends accounts found to be breaking agreements (trading, selling or buying virtual property belonging to Blizzard) and once they have sufficient proof will ban said accounts therefore your statement is false as proved in the screenshots and links below:

[img]http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6999/rpgstash1.jpg[/img]
rpgstash - Diablo 3</a>
hxxp://http://www.rpgstash.com/diablo3/

[img]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2086/rpgstash2.jpg[/img]
rpgstash - World of Warcraft</a>
hxxp://www.rpgstash.com/wow/

<quote="rpgstash">We are not even doing business in your favourite game World of Warcraft.[/quote]
But you were and intended to. See screenshot and above and I note you removed 3 links from the above page since my earlier visit and bringing this into public chat! Trying to hide something?

Blizzard Entertainment owns World of warcraft and Diablo 2&3 which you offer service for. Starcraft does not appear in your lists.

<quote="rpgstash">This is why it really upsets me that you label us as scam / phishing and give us a horrible score without ever having heard about us, used our services or even checked what game services we offer. [/quote]
I do not need to use a service to know what they are engaging in is wrong. A visit of a site is sufficient to assess and rate it.

It really upsets me that you do not understand the basic principles in regards to theft, selling goods you neither own or have rights to sell.

Many MMOs state in their terms that "all virtual goods within their game remains the property of the MMO company and are NOT for resale" or words to that effect and players are only given licence to use them within the game. Selling those virtual goods without the MMO companies permission is effectively theft of property.

rpgstash
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:11 pm

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by rpgstash » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:05 am

Issviews,

You are clearly an intelligent person. However, seeing as you don't change your opinion even in the light of having your misconceptions about the legality of real money trading dispelled, I see no profit in continuing this discussion with you. A few lasts words to shed light on any ill lit spots.

Nobody has been sued for real money trading. Furthermore, in the case of the Glider Bot the court established that breaching the EULA did not constitute copyright law violation. Also note that payment processors and banks worldwide have no regulations against real money trading and that a company conducting real money trading can be incorporated worldwide. In the light of this we can safely establish that real money trading, which is a transaction of goodwill, is not illegal.

I have never had a customer banned in Diablo 3 or Diablo 2 (or WoW for that matter), and the only information I can find on bannings in Diablo 3 are related to use of third party software, spam or fraudalent game key or RMAH payments. Thus, I have no reason to believe that I am putting my customers at risk.

In so far as World of Warcraft, which I am perfectly entitled to do business in if I so wish, our idea behind keeping that page is to preserve page rank and drive organic traffic that hopefully can convert to a few sales in our other stores. WoW never been an integral part of our business.

We did outsource WoW for a short while many years ago but the service was not on par with our standard in other games and thus we lost customers rather than gained them. We have also tried affiliate programs for the last couple of years but this discussion prompted me to review the webshops I am linking to and they have actually started featuring Runescape making it counterproductive to give them traffic and link power. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

To understand who we are and where we are coming from I suggest you read our Retrospective blog post:

http://blog.rpgstash.com/editorials/rpgstash-retrospective/

Guest

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Guest » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:58 am

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Guest

RE: Gold and powerlevelling services - Phish/Scams

Post by Guest » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:26 pm

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